Shard & Assets Ownership Debate

RE: Abandoned and Donated Full Shards

...and btw, there are Artworks inside I did and I never released them for public... And I am pretty sure some of the servers have protected content aswell. You should be pretty sure that there is no protected content in the files before you use them (Yes, some artwork is not part of UO and belongs to the artist that created it!). So please remember this if you start your own server :) Thanks
 

Erad

Citizen
Actually if the artist gave it to the server,and the server owner bought the rights for it than it's the server owner property, and if that server owner gives the source code/resources away then it is actually a opensourced resource that anyone could use. Though giving credits should be a given, if you don't know the artist than give credit to the server crew who provided such resource. Just don't claim that it's your art simple as that.
 
Actually if the artist gave it to the server,and the server owner bought the rights for it than it's the server owner property, and if that server owner gives the source code/resources away then it is actually a opensourced resource that anyone could use. Though giving credits should be a given, if you don't know the artist than give credit to the server crew who provided such resource. Just don't claim that it's your art simple as that.
So, by using what you said, I would love to know how many of us have Broadswords permission to use their art, maps, systems, ect ect. I know for sure I dont. I was pointing out the irony in the use of someones work but seeming upset because someone else did not ask permission for yours. We are a small community, I think we all have used other peoples scripts / art at one point. When that aspect of the community dies, where will we be? Just some food for thought.
 

Erad

Citizen
We technically have right because it was already in the game, now if you were to say take all the art from uo to implement it into a new game now that would be a problem. Broadsword gives us right to use their resources as it's part of the game we are playing on.
 

WizardTim

Citizen
We technically have right because it was already in the game, now if you were to say take all the art from uo to implement it into a new game now that would be a problem. Broadsword gives us right to use their resources as it's part of the game we are playing on.
I ruined a laptop today because I spit my coffee out onto it while reading this. Thanks!
 
We technically have right because it was already in the game, now if you were to say take all the art from uo to implement it into a new game now that would be a problem. Broadsword gives us right to use their resources as it's part of the game we are playing on.
Here, let me help you a little Erad .. Broadsword Online Games

5. BROADSWORD'S OWNERSHIP OF THE SERVICES AND PROPRIETARY MATERIALS

The Services contain copyrighted material, technology, trademarks, service marks, trade secrets and other proprietary information, which may include computer code, text, data, video, images, illustrations, animations, sounds, musical compositions and recordings, audiovisual effects, color schemes, business methods and methods of operation, concepts, ideas, know-how, moral rights, and any related documentation (collectively the “Proprietary Material”). All intellectual property rights to the Proprietary Material, including patent, copyright, trademark and trade secret rights, are owned or licensed by Broadsword. You agree not to copy, download, reproduce, republish, upload, post, transmit, perform, display, distribute or sell, or in any other way exploit the Proprietary Material, or to participate with or to encourage others to engage in such acts, without the prior written consent of Broadsword. Moreover, you may not reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, or translate any computer software programs that comprise Proprietary Material, or otherwise attempt to derive the source code of such programs, except to the extent allowed under any applicable law. If applicable law permits such activities, any information so discovered must be promptly disclosed to Broadsword and shall be deemed to be the confidential proprietary information of Broadsword. Nor may the Proprietary Material, or any portion thereof, be modified or used for any purpose other than as expressly authorized in this Agreement. The Proprietary Material may include materials licensed by Broadsword from third parties, and the licensors of those materials may enforce their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement. ALL RIGHTS NOT EXPRESSLY GRANTED TO YOU IN THIS AGREEMENT ARE RESERVED BY BROADSWORD AND ITS LICENSORS.

So again.. the irony is you are complaining about someone doing to you exactly what you are doing to someone else. As I read the above I see no mention of us having the right to emulate their software, their maps, monsters, towns, ect. Instead, I see them telling us not to. Im all for Servuo and what its done, I applaud them. Mostly Milva because I couldnt deco with Leonardo Da Vinci holding my hand.
 

Erad

Citizen
not going to bother dealing you if you just want to continue to arguing, if it's so ironic then why are you here?
 
not going to bother dealing you if you just want to continue to arguing, if it's so ironic then why are you here?
To point out your blatant hypocrisy. The same could be said about you. If you are so worried about people "stealing" your art, why are you here? I mean the last time I checked this is a community for sharing. This is mine and you need permission is not such.
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I just finished setting up my new laptop. Now I can get back to stealing stuff from people that stole other stuff.

If you need help with the stealing let me know. I have a spare machine =)
 

gametec

Diamond Supporter
That there is some real irony =)
Indeed, I love how server owners can claim content that isn't theirs to claim, then turn around and "attempt" to copyright their own artwork. It's really not an issue because no court in North America is going to side with anyone in this community because of what we are doing; it is hypocritical at best.

A bunch of hacking m'fkrs stealing the glory from the commercial version Ultima Online, using hacking tools to customize it, using EA's/ Broadsword's graphics as their main graphics (just because they don't prosecute us doesn't mean the graphics aren't copyright - it just means we get a free pass), and then turn around and whine because, "you're stealing our graphics *cries*". Go ahead and sue me ;) I can afford it, but can you is the real question.

In the United States you can alter a photograph by a certain number of pixels and it becomes "new" artwork, that law should also apply to graphics; if it didn't there would be massive lawsuits among all medieval mmorpgs; I mean a barrel is a barrel right?!

In the end, no one gives a fk... the servers we make won't go too public except with a select few family and friends because this is a 22 year old game and none of the younger gamers even care about UO; they are all into FPS games like GTA V, Roblox, Minecraft, and COD type games. The point is, get a grip people. I know for a fact that my servers will piss a lot of you off, but its your mistake by releasing your own game client files. I just used the same tools you used to rip Ultima Online, and ripped your files. Tell me, where is the crime in that? There is no honor among thieves. lol
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Mind you guys, I always give credit where credit is due. So I may use your content, but your name is on the clients credit page
 
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WizardTim

Citizen
Trademarks have the property that if you show a history of not defending your brand, then you basically forfeit it. If you don't care that everyone calls a novelty flying disk a frisbee, and that trademark name isn't defended, then frisbee gets thrown into a dictionary of common words. Copyright doesn't have this. If the copyright holder decides to throw the hammer down one day, they can and would probably win. People throw up a free shard and call it Ultima or Ultima Online with some variation in the title. They use UO logos on their websites. Basically there is a precedent to say that people using that trademark is affecting the trademark owner from selling their product. I am really curious why EA or Broadsword never pursued this. We have theories why not but we don't know for sure. Maybe they don't have the team of lawyers and disposable income like Blizzard has to chase everyone down.

This particular thread was good at spreading the dead shards around though. It is just that the thread started as a link to a public repository to now dead links that go nowhere and people having to PM a friend of a friend of a friend to get some files. Rel Por is a good example of a nice small world map and some new dungeons but the shard lasted like 20 minutes before it went down. I think if anyone wants to take the world map and make their own game in it should go have a ball. People bitch about Outlands and the apparent rampant PVP. Then take the Outlands map and make a nice little Trammel game of hugs, caring, and sharing. They have a nice little download link on their site to get the files. Don't feel bad, because as soon as a new shard comes out with custom content I guarantee Owyn downloaded it 20 minutes after the announcement to see what was in those files. He would probably grumble at any theft of Outlands assets and then strip out the new stuff he doesn't have. I am not sure why this thread is full a dead links when a free Google account could have been setup with GB of space where it can be dumped. Instead people try to use that stupid mega drive site that limits the bandwidth.
 

Erad

Citizen
Indeed, I love how server owners can claim content that isn't theirs to claim, then turn around and "attempt" to copyright their own artwork. It's really not an issue because no court in North America is going to side with anyone in this community because of what we are doing; it is hypocritical at best.

A bunch of hacking m'fkrs stealing the glory from the commercial version Ultima Online, using hacking tools to customize it, using EA's/ Broadsword's graphics as their main graphics (just because they don't prosecute us doesn't mean the graphics aren't copyright - it just means we get a free pass), and then turn around and whine because, "you're stealing our graphics *cries*". Go ahead and sue me ;) I can afford it, but can you is the real question.

In the United States you can alter a photograph by a certain number of pixels and it becomes "new" artwork, that law should also apply to graphics; if it didn't there would be massive lawsuits among all medieval mmorpgs; I mean a barrel is a barrel right?!

In the end, no one gives a fk... the servers we make won't go too public except with a select few family and friends because this is a 22 year old game and none of the younger gamers even care about UO; they are all into FPS games like GTA V, Roblox, Minecraft, and COD type games. The point is, get a grip people. I know for a fact that my servers will piss a lot of you off, but its your mistake by releasing your own game client files. I just used the same tools you used to rip Ultima Online, and ripped your files. Tell me, where is the crime in that? There is no honor among thieves. lol
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Mind you guys, I always give credit where credit is due. So I may use your content, but your name is on the clients credit page
well said gametec
 

Tukaram

Squire
I never understood how this was even a debate - everything we are doing here is copyright infringement. If OSI does not prosecute, it still does not make it right.

I try to give credit, when I know where a script comes from. But I have been jumped on here for giving 'improper' credit. I credited who I got the idea from. If they did not credit their source - that is not my fault or my problem. We are all building on each others work. That is what keeps the community alive.

Someone recently offered me money to write a quest for them. I wrote the quest and refused the money. I take so much from this community, I am glad when I can give back to it.

Fighting over copyright when we are stealing an entire game? Give me a break. :cool:
 

WizardTim

Citizen
I try to give credit, when I know where a script comes from. But I have been jumped on here for giving 'improper' credit. I credited who I got the idea from. If they did not credit their source - that is not my fault or my problem.
People shouldn't concern themselves over this idealism of giving credit. This is just one of those safety words people use here to keep the complaining to a minimum. I went to a few shard sites and I saw no credit given for the one who made the images shown below. There is also a very popular shard that boasts they give credit for everything they have in their art files and maps. I saw their credits page, and there is a bunch of names missing from it. If we wanted to do the laundry list of credits then we better reach back to our college days and remember how we sited sources for our term papers, because nobody can keep up with who did what and when. If you try you will credit 10% where the other 90% are not credited so you might as well not even bother. The common tactic is naming and shaming people that swipe stuff. It really hurts feelings that someone made a map with over 20 hours of work and no way to protect it because they have to let you download it so you can play their game. So the only recourse is to go onto Reddit and call them out and try to shame them enough to tear down their shard. There was one shard that advertised on Reddit where that bmanny dude decided to chime in with his admin status and go out of his way to mention they used swiped art and maps. So fu$#%ng what? Did they take those assets and make something better with it? Have at it then.

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Vorspire

Vita-Nex: Core
Administrator
ServUO Developer
I didn't really want to jump in to this discussion because for the most part, it is hard to argue any virtue in what this community is doing when it comes to game assets. Code is an absolutely separate issue to the sharing of game assets, so I'm not referring to that aspect of the community when I say that.

Credit should be given wherever it's warranted, no ifs, no buts, no laws, just common decency.
Assets should be removed upon request of the author, even if you are not obliged to do so by law.
Don't buy-in to cancel culture by taking the call-out route unless you've exhausted every possible way to mediate the situation.

People shouldn't concern themselves over this idealism of giving credit. This is just one of those safety words people use here to keep the complaining to a minimum.
Can't argue with that statement. Though it is common courtesy to extend credit where possible. Not even trying to do so seems shallow.

I went to a few shard sites and I saw no credit given for the one who made the images shown below.
The game comes with a very extensive credits.dat file that covers all original game assets.

There is also a very popular shard that boasts they give credit for everything they have in their art files and maps. I saw their credits page, and there is a bunch of names missing from it.
Said shard's credits page also states they make every effort to hit up the authors of custom artwork.
Failing to attempt this step is what causes drama in the community.

If we wanted to do the laundry list of credits then we better reach back to our college days and remember how we sited sources for our term papers, because nobody can keep up with who did what and when.
Laziness isn't a good enough excuse to not give proper credit where it's due. It may not be possible for one person to track all of the credit, so you find someone who will help. Shards typically have more than one person running the show after all.

If you try you will credit 10% where the other 90% are not credited so you might as well not even bother.
This defeatist attitude isn't how positive changes are achieved.

The common tactic is naming and shaming people that swipe stuff.
Unfortunately very true. However, anyone with a sliver of decency would first contact the person who they feel has wronged them in order to correct the issue. The naming and shaming route should be reserved for those who cannot resolve the issue amicably.

It really hurts feelings that someone made a map with over 20 hours of work and no way to protect it because they have to let you download it so you can play their game.
You shouldn't down-play the amount of effort that goes in to map-making just to bolster your opinion. Most map makers spend in excess of a thousand hours perfecting their craft. In that case, yea, you could take it personally. I know the EA's teams have taken it personally in the past, given their general attitude towards "grey" shards. Just because you haven't personally spend more than 20 hours fiddling with a map-maker doesn't mean other people's work is worthless or worth less.

So the only recourse is to go onto Reddit and call them out and try to shame them enough to tear down their shard. There was one shard that advertised on Reddit where that bmanny dude decided to chime in with his admin status and go out of his way to mention they used swiped art and maps. So fu$#%ng what? Did they take those assets and make something better with it? Have at it then.
Before you throw down the power-abuse card -because the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth- remember that you don't have all of the details.



I personally don't care about receiving credit, it's been many years since I've had to ask or remind someone to give me credit.
I do make it easier for people by using file headers, but I could care less about them being stripped from my files or redistributed.
Even though I feel that way, others would disagree, so I always extend credit where it's due or requested.

We don't all need to hold hands, but we need to calm the hell down and remember why we're here in the first place.
 

WizardTim

Citizen
it is hard to argue any virtue in what this community is doing when it comes to game assets
At least you tried injecting your ideas of ethics and virtue with the rest of your post.
Credit should be given wherever it's warranted, no ifs, no buts, no laws, just common decency.
Nice thing to say, but anybody close to doing it is far from thorough. It is part of the laziness.
Assets should be removed upon request of the author, even if you are not obliged to do so by law.
Good luck with that one. So I guess Broadsword just needs to ask nicely for us to stop using their stuff?
Though it is common courtesy to extend credit where possible. Not even trying to do so seems shallow.
Another idea of a virtue quickly ignored when the 2D client is downloaded for emulation purposes.
The game comes with a very extensive credits.dat file that covers all original game assets.
Yeah, people know where to find that one and it is so in their faces loud and proud. This is like saying I gave credit to everyone by putting their names in the comments section of a DLL file.
Said shard's credits page also states they make every effort to hit up the authors of custom artwork. Failing to attempt this step is what causes drama in the community.
Said shard? What shard?
Laziness isn't a good enough excuse to not give proper credit where it's due. It may not be possible for one person to track all of the credit, so you find someone who will help. Shards typically have more than one person running the show after all.
Nope, but for something that is just a hobby monopolizing a small part of someone's life, it is the easiest route and usually justified with the same form of ethics that caused them to pursue a hobby in Ultima Online emulation.
This defeatist attitude isn't how positive changes are achieved.
I don't think the Ultima Online emulation community will wither away because of art thieves. Hell, Broadsword keeps trying over and over.
However, anyone with a sliver of decency would first contact the person who they feel has wronged them in order to correct the issue.
This was the battle cry during the MP3 days where we posted music thinking if the artist has a problem with it they will let us know that we wronged them. Until then, we will assume they are OK with it. Just another laziness justification.
You shouldn't down-play the amount of effort that goes in to map-making just to bolster your opinion. Most map makers spend in excess of a thousand hours perfecting their craft. In that case, yea, you could take it personally. I know the EA's teams have taken it personally in the past, given their general attitude towards "grey" shards. Just because you haven't personally spend more than 20 hours fiddling with a map-maker doesn't mean other people's work is worthless or worth less.
On the contrary, their 20 hours is worth alot for another shard own to not have to spend the same time making that map. The first person saved them 20 hours of work. The point I was making with that statement is that shard owners feel somewhat powerless from thieves because they have to let the public download the art files in order to play. So the copy protection at that point is naming and shaming.
Before you throw down the power-abuse card -because the whole thing leaves a bad taste in your mouth- remember that you don't have all of the details.
You may not like the way I phrased this, but my statements were all true. He is the moderator of that Reddit. He made a moderator post for a particular shard pointing out how they stole assets from another. The shard owner asked why he was singled out from any other shard that swipes assets, which he was entirely correct. I didn't make any claims of unknown details past that. I don't care how he moderates his Reddit, but just pointing out another ironic statement of a thief that stole from a thief and called him a thief.
We don't all need to hold hands, but we need to calm the hell down and remember why we're here in the first place.
I don't think anyone is panicking in this thread. It was just started by pointing out the absurdity of stealing from one person and then complaining you were then stolen from. The statement was made that someone's art was in a particular shard files and that they didn't give permission. It is just back to the irony of it all.
 

DragnMaw

Citizen
My two cents. Server owner "owns" rights to anything created for use on the shard they own. If THEY quit, and THEY offer up the shard as open source, the artists/other devs should have to live by the OWNERS decision, since it should be made by that person in the end.
 

Djeryv

Squire
Ugh...I take time away and come back to ServUO's CW channel? @WizardTim WTF? Always gotta be a right fighter? I am gonna be back out there next week. My flight leaves Sunday night.

I'll give my two copper pieces. We lie. We cheat. We steal. And it is the most fun we have with Ultima Online ever!

...or as Conan would say...

"Crush your enemies, see shards driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the players!"
 

Erad

Citizen
We are Essentially a modding community, which modding is legal unless you try to start selling the client for money, you can sell your own art that you yourself created as you own it. You can sell the scripts that you yourself created. As for crediting, the best thing any of us can do as modders of the community is simply try to credit those you know who has given their work away for free. No we can't credit everyone single person simply because lost of history alone.

To point out your blatant hypocrisy. The same could be said about you. If you are so worried about people "stealing" your art, why are you here? I mean the last time I checked this is a community for sharing. This is mine and you need permission is not such.
I share my art to the community they are not stealing my art at all. You just need to get off your high horse, literally being a toxic member to the community.
 
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Djeryv

Squire
I wouldn't go that far. A friend of mine had some weird incident with Google Blogger a few months ago that I described to @Vorspire at one point in a PM where I would never take this for granted again. I enjoy what I assembled and what I have for a private UO experience. Chris has taken over my project now so I can do other stuff...and I will confess...I have been playing Avernum lately until the weather gets warmer. Chris and I made sure to take any reference to the word "Ultima" out of the project entirely on the public facing side.