Shard & Assets Ownership Debate

Vorspire

Vita-Nex: Core
Administrator
ServUO Developer
Ok. I'm tapping out of this one.

If you're going to take an opinion dump, you should at least stand by that smell.


At least you tried injecting your ideas of ethics and virtue with the rest of your post.
I didn't try, I made it obvious.
It's entirely ethics and opinion.
You choose to not bother, I chose to make an effort.
That's why you and I are in very different positions.

Nice thing to say, but anybody close to doing it is far from thorough. It is part of the laziness.
If they can't manage that much then their project won't last. Problem is self-solving in the end.

Good luck with that one. So I guess Broadsword just needs to ask nicely for us to stop using their stuff?
They're a corporate entity, we are private individuals.
We don't expect them to ask us nicely, but in this niche community, we try to respect each-other.
Though given it's something you haven't really been around long enough to experience here.

Another idea of a virtue quickly ignored when the 2D client is downloaded for emulation purposes.
How?

Yeah, people know where to find that one and it is so in their faces loud and proud. This is like saying I gave credit to everyone by putting their names in the comments section of a DLL file.
There's quite literally a huge Credits button right there on the login screen of the client...

Said shard? What shard?
Not taking the bait, you're the one that brought it up.
At the end of the day it's irrelevant to name the shard unless you want to reinforce some precognitive bias about that shard.

Nope, but for something that is just a hobby monopolizing a small part of someone's life, it is the easiest route and usually justified with the same form of ethics that caused them to pursue a hobby in Ultima Online emulation.
You can't monopolize a small portion of something, it would actually be the opposite by definition.
It entirely depends on the person/people we're talking about, otherwise it's just conjecture.
You're being ambiguous with your statements here, there are words but no real meaning can be derived from them.
Stop beating around the bush and say what you want to say, save the consequences.

I don't think the Ultima Online emulation community will wither away because of art thieves. Hell, Broadsword keeps trying over and over.
Of course not, but advocating that people don't bother in the first place isn't helping.

This was the battle cry during the MP3 days where we posted music thinking if the artist has a problem with it they will let us know that we wronged them. Until then, we will assume they are OK with it. Just another laziness justification.
Emulation is a legal grey area, hence why we've been debating the same old topic for two decades.
It would be pretty clear-cut if EA had ever taken action to protect the games' assets, but they haven't.
In an ideal world, everyone would live by the honor system, but providing a ToS/EULA without actually enforcing it means nothing.
This situation cannot be compared to the days of music piracy, the lines regarding that are quite clear and have precedent set for reinforcement.
Blizzard actively sued private WoW servers and won, that's why they barely exist today, because a precedent was set.
In context, we're talking about members stealing from members, not members stealing from a corporation.
I could even make the joke that EA are the true thieves with the way they gouge people through microtransactions, and how that should justify ripping off UO, but that'd be unfair. Two wrongs don't make a right.

On the contrary, their 20 hours is worth alot for another shard own to not have to spend the same time making that map. The first person saved them 20 hours of work. The point I was making with that statement is that shard owners feel somewhat powerless from thieves because they have to let the public download the art files in order to play. So the copy protection at that point is naming and shaming.
20 hours of map work is going to get you a flat grass island with a roofless hut and a few scattered plants, unless you're a professional mapper in which case you're not going to spend 20 hours on the map, more like 20,000.
When you equate that to labour rates, that's a lot of money.
There are ways to secure the files, and there are ways to mediate 'theft' cases where it does happen.
Some people tend to be a little more dramatic than others and don't stop to think because they're still angry at having their work ripped off.
The OP also pointed out that there was artwork unrelated to UO being 'stolen', but that seems to have been conveniently ignored.

He is the moderator of that Reddit.
I don't care how he moderates his Reddit
You quite clearly do to be bringing it up in the first place and using it as a significant argument in your cases going forward.
I've removed a shard and its' owner from ServUO very recently for exactly the same reason.
They failed to communicate an understanding with the shards' owner by completely ignoring all communications, then failed to properly address the concerns during mediation.
Their attitude showed they had potential to cause more drama within this community than they would contributing to it.
Whether it was the same shard as described on Reddit, or not, is up for debate because I haven't paid attention to the reddit for a while (I actually don't care what happens there).
When I say you don't know all the details, it's simply because you don't have any way to know what events had lead up to that thread.

It was just started by pointing out the absurdity of stealing from one person and then complaining you were then stolen from. The statement was made that someone's art was in a particular shard files and that they didn't give permission. It is just back to the irony of it all.
It's not irony, it's hypocrisy.
Everyone is a hypocrite, including myself.
It's impossible not to be, it's part of our humanity - a trait which needs to be kept in check like any other vice.

I don't think anyone is panicking in this thread.
Calming down doesn't mean anyone is panicking, it just means this is going to get heated, people are going to have differing opinions, so we should remember why we are here beyond this thread.

I would like to ask; who are you and why are you here at ServUO?
 

OUTLANDSOwyn

Citizen
Don't feel bad, because as soon as a new shard comes out with custom content I guarantee Owyn downloaded it 20 minutes after the announcement to see what was in those files. He would probably grumble at any theft of Outlands assets and then strip out the new stuff he doesn't have.

Obviously I struggle with this kind of misinformation being spread around, and then struggle further with you suggesting that credit and permission are acts not worth pursuing.

I have gone to great lengths and expense to develop relationships, acquire assets and build a team capable of building our own artwork. In every case possible, Outlands has explicit permission from each artist that we are using work from, and in many cases have paid the artists directly for their work. For example, @Valorian-Aeternum - the OP in this thread - has granted us permission to use her artwork and gumps from Arx Obscura and beyond. She is also creating original content for Outlands and is paid to do so. Please don't make the assumption that I have stolen anything.

We have a credits page on our website where we list each shard or artist we used content from, even when they're paid for their work. If you were to research, you would see that Outlands has also made generous donations to various servers in exchange for specific assets we use. We also have a stable of our own artists who we found, commission and pay for unique work specifically for Outlands. This includes artwork/items, gumps, and animations/mobiles. We also pay the people who we consult with, such as the developer who made our launcher and a developer who understands the minutiae of patching UO files when I am in over my head.

I also encouraged Fortuna (from Die Neue Welt) to put up a website where she can sell her custom UO animations, and even though Outlands donated to their project, we re-purchased each of the animations we use from her website to support her work. We have a free trade agreement with Andaria, a Czech roleplaying shard with an incredible map, who generously contributed map work, towns and custom housing to Outlands. They were also paid for their work directly. I also donate to uo-pixel.de to compensate @eri for her time and work in making and maintaining such an incredible public repository.

So yes, it is extremely disheartening to see shards launch using our exact files, or to see the work we commissioned and paid for specifically for Outlands, ripped, distributed and used within hours of us patching them in, and then flaunt the use so openly. Outlands has permission, *not* (the proverbial) you. I have every right to tell people that shards are ripping off the work we have done, relationships I have fostered, and money we have spent to build what we have made. In the most recent example, Evermore - which you cite, as bmanny made it clear the assets were stolen - I even offered to help them correct their files and proceed in the right direction, and was told I was a "manchild" concerned with losing players and supposed "profit." In another example, UOForever looted our files and patched artwork into their files but claimed it wasn't from us, yet it literally included (and still does) an art item/map of Outlands that I personally created, removing all doubt. There are instances where Outlands is using artwork from other games which pre-date the DMCA, but we are actively making strides to replace this work with our own custom animations.

Of course you can argue that we're doing the same by distributing the base UO files, and that has been acknowledged by the community countless times. Emulation is a grey area, as has been stated countless times in this thread. The expectation is that every player has purchased UO at some point and thus has access to these files. Official UO offers them free for download on their website. I personally maintain multiple subscription accounts to the official servers.

To accuse me or Outlands of malicious theft is another issue entirely. Copyright laws, particularly in Germany, are very strict, and the owner/creator of the work has every legal leg to stand on as the work is stolen, distributed and ownership is claimed. I personally have no interest in engaging in legal action for the use/distribution and theft of our unique and custom assets, but I can't speak for the artists whose work is being stolen without even a simple message to ask permission - no attempt whatsoever.

A rising tide floats all boats, and there is simply no excuse for being morally corrupt in such a small, niche community. We can all do better, but by not even trying or simply assuming that everything is stolen and no effort of compensation has been made, is a horrible mentality which perpetuates this toxic cycle.
 
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Catarina

Citizen
wish that was true.. im a tattoo artist and its hell.. if u advertise your art, it will for sure show up on someone else.. and if my client payed for my art, is it mine or theirs? what about us, making tattoos out of pictures that have copyrights? if i retype your code, is it mine? what if i steal someone's art from a shard that already stole the art? to be honest.. it sucks.. but when u make something like you client files public, you making all that art public and up for grabs... same as with tattoos.. is it worth going after someone who made 100 bucks out of my drawing? are people really stealing art and scripts if the ppl who own it are making it public? i can even use a scene from a movie, a part of a song, a quote from a book without even worrying about copyrighting. when someone takes arts and scripts and tailor into their own thing, it becomes something else.
 

Erad

Citizen
Obviously I struggle with this kind of misinformation being spread around, and then struggle further with you suggesting that credit and permission are acts not worth pursuing.

I have gone to great lengths and expense to develop relationships, acquire assets and build a team capable of building our own artwork. In every case possible, Outlands has explicit permission from each artist that we are using work from, and in many cases have paid the artists directly for their work. For example, @Valorian-Aeternum - the OP in this thread - has granted us permission to use her artwork and gumps from Arx Obscura and beyond. She is also creating original content for Outlands and is paid to do so. Please don't make the assumption that I have stolen anything.

We have a credits page on our website where we list each shard or artist we used content from, even when they're paid for their work. If you were to research, you would see that Outlands has also made generous donations to various servers in exchange for specific assets we use. We also have a stable of our own artists who we found, commission and pay for unique work specifically for Outlands. This includes artwork/items, gumps, and animations/mobiles. We also pay the people who we consult with, such as the developer who made our launcher and a developer who understands the minutiae of patching UO files when I am in over my head.

I also encouraged Fortuna (from Die Neue Welt) to put up a website where she can sell her custom UO animations, and even though Outlands donated to their project, we re-purchased each of the animations we use from her website to support her work. We have a free trade agreement with Andaria, a Czech roleplaying shard with an incredible map, who generously contributed map work, towns and custom housing to Outlands. They were also paid for their work directly. I also donate to uo-pixel.de to compensate @eri for her time and work in making and maintaining such an incredible public repository.

So yes, it is extremely disheartening to see shards launch using our exact files, or to see the work we commissioned and paid for specifically for Outlands, ripped, distributed and used within hours of us patching them in, and then flaunt the use so openly. Outlands has permission, *not* (the proverbial) you. I have every right to tell people that shards are ripping off the work we have done, relationships I have fostered, and money we have spent to build what we have made. In the most recent example, Evermore - which you cite, as bmanny made it clear the assets were stolen - I even offered to help them correct their files and proceed in the right direction, and was told I was a "manchild" concerned with losing players and supposed "profit." In another example, UOForever looted our files and patched artwork into their files but claimed it wasn't from us, yet it literally included (and still does) an art item/map of Outlands that I personally created, removing all doubt. There are instances where Outlands is using artwork from other games which pre-date the DMCA, but we are actively making strides to replace this work with our own custom animations.

Of course you can argue that we're doing the same by distributing the base UO files, and that has been acknowledged by the community countless times. Emulation is a grey area, as has been stated countless times in this thread. The expectation is that every player has purchased UO at some point and thus has access to these files. Official UO offers them free for download on their website. I personally maintain multiple subscription accounts to the official servers.

To accuse me or Outlands of malicious theft is another issue entirely. Copyright laws, particularly in Germany, are very strict, and the owner/creator of the work has every legal leg to stand on as the work is stolen, distributed and ownership is claimed. I personally have no interest in engaging in legal action for the use/distribution and theft of our unique and custom assets, but I can't speak for the artists whose work is being stolen without even a simple message to ask permission - no attempt whatsoever.

A rising tide floats all boats, and there is simply no excuse for being morally corrupt in such a small, niche community. We can all do better, but by not even trying or simply assuming that everything is stolen and no effort of compensation has been made, is a horrible mentality which perpetuates this toxic cycle.
I never played on outlands server nor have I downloaded the client but I do have high respect for how that server alone has alot of Youtube content being created. It's rare to see a UO server getting highlighted. Not gonna lie if i do download the client it's more for inspiration than ripping the art, I had a few people who sent me a few of their client files to show me what their server is based around. Honestly I just love seeing the art they worked on, I actually have the UO:ME client files that I downloaded and I was floored just seeing the all the art based around Middle Earth it's absolutely beautiful.
 

Tukaram

Squire
People shouldn't concern themselves over this idealism of giving credit.
No idealism - just thanking people for their help. We all stand on the shoulders of those that came ahead of us. That is how we advance. Hell, I do not even consider myself a coder... I am an editor ha ha. I just use other scripts (or snippets) and modify them to my needs.
 

Izex

Citizen
Giving credit to someone's work is the least you can do. It may even lead to someone liking their work so much that they go and hire that person to do something for them. I for one would love any artist that has worked on Outlands to do work for my shard and I would be able to find them via the credit the Outlands team gives.
 

gametec

Diamond Supporter
I never understood how this was even a debate - everything we are doing here is copyright infringement. If OSI does not prosecute, it still does not make it right.

I try to give credit, when I know where a script comes from. But I have been jumped on here for giving 'improper' credit. I credited who I got the idea from. If they did not credit their source - that is not my fault or my problem. We are all building on each others work. That is what keeps the community alive.

Someone recently offered me money to write a quest for them. I wrote the quest and refused the money. I take so much from this community, I am glad when I can give back to it.

Fighting over copyright when we are stealing an entire game? Give me a break. :cool:
You are my hero, thank you for backing my debate... I don’t understand the issue people have either. Somewhere along the line this hobby went from a “sharing is caring” to a “pay to play” mentality and it’s really sad to say the least.
 

WizardTim

Citizen
I opened up the shard's client in Fiddler and I saw art in there that wasn't credited to the ones who made it. Sure they got the broad strokes of the UO Pixel De and that dude from that quick-to-die server, but it is far from a complete list. I remember an interview where they stated that they opened up a shard's client files in Fiddler and that they saw their stuff in there so they asked if they could use their stuff. Why did you download their client and open it up in Fiddler if you weren't going to play their shard? I even went to that UO Evermore site and saw what the butt ache was about. They took the shard's dungeons and used them in their map. I wonder if the social justice army caused UO Evermore to delete their shard and walk off in shame? I doubt it. I guess people want to believe they are Robin Hood instead of Bonnie & Clyde, or that the mind can sell itself anything.
 
What I think gets me actually is all the "give credit where its due". So for arguments sake (figure of speech) I went to a good 20 free shard web sites. During my visits, I saw not one mention of Raph Koster. You know the lead designer for UO back when. It seems that most, again, most not all people want credit when its due to them. I agree 250% with Gametec. A lot servers treat this as a source of income rather than a hobby. There was a server named Memento Mori, their website summed up my thoughts on the whole "pay to play" best...

" Selling special items to players by shard owners for money is driven by expenses or by greed. This will never be necessary on Memento Mori. Memento Mori is first and foremost a free shard, not a business enterprise. "

On a side note, Im all about Bonnie and Clyde. Robin Hood (wears tights).
 

WizardTim

Citizen
A lot servers treat this as a source of income rather than a hobby. There was a server named Memento Mori, their website summed up my thoughts on the whole "pay to play" best...
We will just use the word "donation" to cover up the fact that we are making money and then paying others to make extra things for the shard. I think they call it a business at that point. All by using someone else's trademark and then we will bash Evermore for using our dungeons. I remember another interview where the shard added some custom artifact hunting book thing and the host asked where they got the art and the admin said that it was official UO art. So they went out of their way to download Broadsword's latest client, open it up in Fiddler, and then snag more things. These are the same people complaining about others using their assets moments after they release it in their client, and they do the exact same thing to Broadsword without asking for a lick of permission. As for the "what are you doing here?" question, I am here to illegally use EA's Ultima Online client to play a game for free because I don't want to pay them a dime. That is what I am doing here. The difference is, I know my shit stinks so I will stand near that smell. I don't think crying to people who stole your stuff just after you stole some other stuff is some sort of right the thief has to exercise or that he smells April fresh.
 
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Vorspire

Vita-Nex: Core
Administrator
ServUO Developer
We will just use the word "donation" to cover up the fact that we are making money and then paying others to make extra things for the shard. I think they call it a business at that point. All by using someone else's trademark and then we will bash Evermore for using our dungeons. I remember another interview where the shard added some custom artifact hunting book thing and the host asked where they got the art and the admin said that it was official UO art. So they went out of their way to download Broadsword's latest client, open it up in Fiddler, and then snag more things. These are the same people complaining about others using their assets moments after they release it in their client, and they do the exact same thing to Broadsword without asking for a lick of permission. As for the "what are you doing here?" question, I am here to illegally use EA's Ultima Online client to play a game for free because I don't want to pay them a dime. That is what I am doing here. The difference is, I know my shit stinks so I will stand near that smell. I don't think crying to people who stole your stuff just after you stole some other stuff is some sort of right the thief has to exercise or that he smells April fresh.

Any shard that takes 'donations' and pays taxes on that income is essentially running a business.
I don't think a single shard has ever registered as an official non-profit charity or organization.

Personally I could care less about EA.
But this community didn't come this far by screwing each other over, so the ideal is that we don't steal from each-other.
This "two wrongs make a right" attitude towards theft from within the community is toxic.
People have the right to speak out about being victims of theft.

You being here at ServUO and messing with scripts isn't illegal.
Hearing you say that you'll stand by your unpopular opinions is actually refreshing.
 
Hearing you say that you'll stand by your unpopular opinions is actually refreshing.
I guess Im just against the whole "do as I say not as I do". As an example I will use Vita Nex Core. 95% of the servers use it. Not once can I recall ever seeing a "thanks Vorspire". Yet when someone uses something of theirs they get their panties twisted in a granny knot. I honestly dont care who takes what from where or who (unless its my bank account). I have no dogs in any of those races. Im not anywhere near being against what Servuo does or has done, or what they may do. On a more personal note, it seems that the older I get the less popular my opinion seems.
 

WizardTim

Citizen
I like how this dude tried to Kickstart a UO shard:


I guess he couldn't get permission to use their logos and artwork like some other shards did. I would love to say the name but it is like Beetlejuice. You say it three times and they log into these forums pretty quick. Even Garriott knew he couldn't use that stuff so he had to make that shroud game from scratch.

I guess Im just against the whole "do as I say not as I do". As an example I will use Vita Nex Core. 95% of the servers use it. Not once can I recall ever seeing a "thanks Vorspire". Yet when someone uses something of theirs they get their panties twisted in a granny knot.
If you are going to start a shard and make a bunch of custom client content for it, then just assume it will be swiped. Either for a server advertising itself on Reddit with nice pretty screenshots of the very dungeons you hand crafted as a labor of love, or some hobbyist that just plays UO on their laptop with ServUO. So the focus should be on how the server runs, what systems you have, and how players interact in your world. Someone can take all of the pretty maps and art they want but if they can't make it work together into something that attracts and audience then you will still have a shard with 2 players. Yours and your admin account. This is what Broadsword keeps trying to do too. Make something that people will want to pay for. What we call donations they call subscriptions.

Im not anywhere near being against what Servuo does or has done, or what they may do.
Nobody is saying emulation is any issue being discussed here. It was just started when a thief said that we shouldn't steal their stuff.
 
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gametec

Diamond Supporter
Obviously I struggle with this kind of misinformation being spread around, and then struggle further with you suggesting that credit and permission are acts not worth pursuing.

I have gone to great lengths and expense to develop relationships, acquire assets and build a team capable of building our own artwork. In every case possible, Outlands has explicit permission from each artist that we are using work from, and in many cases have paid the artists directly for their work. For example, @Valorian-Aeternum - the OP in this thread - has granted us permission to use her artwork and gumps from Arx Obscura and beyond. She is also creating original content for Outlands and is paid to do so. Please don't make the assumption that I have stolen anything.

We have a credits page on our website where we list each shard or artist we used content from, even when they're paid for their work. If you were to research, you would see that Outlands has also made generous donations to various servers in exchange for specific assets we use. We also have a stable of our own artists who we found, commission and pay for unique work specifically for Outlands. This includes artwork/items, gumps, and animations/mobiles. We also pay the people who we consult with, such as the developer who made our launcher and a developer who understands the minutiae of patching UO files when I am in over my head.

I also encouraged Fortuna (from Die Neue Welt) to put up a website where she can sell her custom UO animations, and even though Outlands donated to their project, we re-purchased each of the animations we use from her website to support her work. We have a free trade agreement with Andaria, a Czech roleplaying shard with an incredible map, who generously contributed map work, towns and custom housing to Outlands. They were also paid for their work directly. I also donate to uo-pixel.de to compensate @eri for her time and work in making and maintaining such an incredible public repository.

So yes, it is extremely disheartening to see shards launch using our exact files, or to see the work we commissioned and paid for specifically for Outlands, ripped, distributed and used within hours of us patching them in, and then flaunt the use so openly. Outlands has permission, *not* (the proverbial) you. I have every right to tell people that shards are ripping off the work we have done, relationships I have fostered, and money we have spent to build what we have made. In the most recent example, Evermore - which you cite, as bmanny made it clear the assets were stolen - I even offered to help them correct their files and proceed in the right direction, and was told I was a "manchild" concerned with losing players and supposed "profit." In another example, UOForever looted our files and patched artwork into their files but claimed it wasn't from us, yet it literally included (and still does) an art item/map of Outlands that I personally created, removing all doubt. There are instances where Outlands is using artwork from other games which pre-date the DMCA, but we are actively making strides to replace this work with our own custom animations.

Of course you can argue that we're doing the same by distributing the base UO files, and that has been acknowledged by the community countless times. Emulation is a grey area, as has been stated countless times in this thread. The expectation is that every player has purchased UO at some point and thus has access to these files. Official UO offers them free for download on their website. I personally maintain multiple subscription accounts to the official servers.

To accuse me or Outlands of malicious theft is another issue entirely. Copyright laws, particularly in Germany, are very strict, and the owner/creator of the work has every legal leg to stand on as the work is stolen, distributed and ownership is claimed. I personally have no interest in engaging in legal action for the use/distribution and theft of our unique and custom assets, but I can't speak for the artists whose work is being stolen without even a simple message to ask permission - no attempt whatsoever.

A rising tide floats all boats, and there is simply no excuse for being morally corrupt in such a small, niche community. We can all do better, but by not even trying or simply assuming that everything is stolen and no effort of compensation has been made, is a horrible mentality which perpetuates this toxic cycle.
Actually when they pass off their art to you, it then becomes your property or the property of whomever bought the assets.

now that is out of the way, I don’t know German laws but prosecuting internationally is very difficult unless you are a corporate entity with millions, if not billions, in the bank. Yes, I heard that you aren’t personally investing it the witch hunt for people who “steal” artwork.

Personally I don’t care one way or the other. I will always borrow artwork, maybe change it up a bit (because in my country an artist can change a specific number of pixels a certain number of times and the art becomes a new piece of art), and put the original artist or name of the server or server owner I grabbed it from (if I have trouble finding the source; if I can’t find the source I give credit to “unknown”. There is also a small line that states if you see art that is yours and your name isn’t on the list, email us.

However either way, it will go in if my artist deems it something we can utilize for present or in the future; whether people like it - not my real problem; my server will never get as big as Outlands on a public advertising level. I make servers for family and friends. None of whom are really interested in making UO a day to day operation. If I have 200 family members who happen to love UO then so be it. If they have 500 friends who want to play then great

The point is that this argument is stupid, at the end of the day most people on here taking art or not, won’t get more than 100-200 people on their servers in a month total; let alone every single day for a month. So yea when you argue that with people you sound like a man child because they aren’t doing anything to you or your server; they are just trying to feel good about making a server for themselves that they are proud of.

and that is really the point of all of this... this hobby is like a m’fking sandbox or lego set for grown ups. Some people like cars, some people love porn, some of us love UO, and some of you love all three. Take pride in your work people, if it makes you feel good to use some else’s work then go for it! Who is it hurting really? Your pride? In this time with COVID-19 especially, you should be flattered and embrace the creativity.

what’s more, your scripts on Outlands are probably going to be entirely different than those on many other servers using your graphics; so in that respect it’s not the same. Anyway I am done with this argument. You guys do you, and I will do me

Owyn if you want to have a private convo with questions or comments, then please feel free to approach me, I don’t bite (hard), but I do know for a fact that my artist came across your files and has uploaded them to a master mul... with that said I told him to alter them and change the pixels as per law in the United States. If you have an easier solution I am all ears.

for me it just means that in the future we could potentially use them to make new effects on our servers... anyway just shoot me a message if you wish to, otherwise life is too short for this. You all know where I stand and it’s nice to see I am not entirely alone in my thinking.

love y’all ❤️